Thought you might find this website helpful Gary. x http://www.lookingforgod.com/ask-a-question
So I asked a question, I was limited in what I could say due to space available as I might have pre-empted some of his answers but anyway.
My question was:
"Im interested, Ive asked many religious people but none has managed to answer. Someone as great as Jesus would have left a mark in history. There were many scholars writing at Jesus's time which is where we get much insight into that period in History. Could you point me to references in history that prove the biblical Jesus existed, without using Religious books. Archaeologists have found the tombs of 71 Yeshuas from the period of Jesus' death. In fact the more you look the less you find."
Just for clarity by biblical I mean the miracle man that walked on water and fed 5,000 with five loaves and 2 fish, cured the blind, raised the dead. All of these amazing things should have got back to historians of the time.
The answer came back 15 days later.
Dear Gary,
Thank you for this important question. I apologise
for the delay in responding to you. I am glad to tell you that the
existence of Jesus is established from (at least) two non-Christian
sources especially.
The first is the Jewish writer Josephus, in a work
entitled 'Antiquities of the Jews', written around 93–94 AD. Josephus
was a Jewish general who was among the leaders of opposition to Roman
rule who, after being defeated in a Jewish rebellion,
went on to become a friend of the Roman emperors and wrote this work to
explain to them the nature and history of Judaism. He was not a
Christian yet he included two references to Jesus Christ which say that
he lived, claimed to be the Messiah, and was crucified
as the Christian writings state. One of the passages contains more
detailed information and appears to support Jesus' claims.
For this reason many scholars think that, at some
later point, something was added to the passage by a Christian copyist
or by Christian authority and that this version survived while earlier
versions were lost or destroyed. However, scholars
of Josephus (including those who are not Christian believers) agree
that the two references to Jesus are original. They confirm no more than
his existence, claim to be the Messiah, and his death on the cross.
They do not refer to specific teachings of Jesus.
The second historical reference is from a Roman
historian named Tacitus, who wrote around AD 116 a work now usually
called 'The Annals', in which he records the execution of 'Christus' by
Pontius Pilate (Bk.15: Ch.44). As it criticises
Christianity it is evidently not a Christian addition or forgery. One
again, this reference confirms nothing more than the historical reality
of Jesus.
However, it is important to take notice of the
historical reliability of the gospels themselves. Three of them share
similar content in terms of recording incidents in Jesus' life and
teaching, yet they are written in different styles which
reflect the particular interests of their authors. The slight
variations tend to confirm to historians that they were not deliberate
forgeries but rather genuine recollections.
Further, they were written within a generation of
Jesus' death. John, author of the fourth gospel, was an eyewitness who
lived into old age and wrote his gospel to provide an account of
episodes not recounted by the other gospels and to
provide a deeply thoughtful reflection on the meaning of Jesus' life,
death and resurrection.
This means that the gospels pass several tests
applied by historians to an ancient biography - eyewitness accounts,
written very early after the person has died, and with slight variations
that demonstrate they did not merely forge the
story by repeating each other woodenly. Add to this that it is known
that almost all the 12 apostles were executed for insisting, against
Roman beliefs, that Jesus was the true 'Lord' who rose from death,
rather than the emperor. If they forged or invented
the story of Jesus, or exaggerated his powers, they preferred to die
than to escape death by confessing and renouncing their inventions. They
made no money from their writings and had no great status from a
Christian movement that was small and weak when they
were executed.
I was an atheist and cynic about Christianity when I
first read the Bible and I was not easily persuaded myself until I
looked at these matters personally!
With regard to the tomb of Jesus there is no
certain proof that it is known, but one must consider that a resurrected
Jesus would have made the tomb an irrelevance, unlike any shrine
containing his body. The most likely candidate remains
the ancient Church of the Holy Sepulchre in the old city of Jerusalem
because the site was already venerated as such before the Emperor
Constantine erected a church over it. Maintaining an accurate oral
tradition was, and is, extremely important in Middle
Eastern culture because of its style of learning and the importance of
its different communities retaining their various historical
distinctions. However, tradition is not proof so that we cannot be
dogmatic.
In summary, there is solid historical evidence for
the existence of Jesus and the idea that his followers are undependable
witnesses is far weaker than it might seem when you investigate the
matter.
I do hope this general answer to your question goes
some way to helping you find peace with God through Jesus Christ our
Lord. If you want to know more about what Jesus has done for you please
watch the video on the main part of our site:
www.lookingforGod.com
As I close, let me encourage you to take your
questions to the leaders of your church. They will be able to help you
more than we can in an email, as well as give you prayer and support as
you continue your spiritual journey. If you do
not attend a church regularly, then the Looking for God church finder
may help you:
If you have any further questions, please feel free to browse our answer database or to submit a new question:
*All Scripture references are taken
From The New King James Version of the Holy Bible unless stated otherwise
*If
anything in this answers affects you directly, then please feel free to
call our confidential prayer line in the UK on 0845 4567729, where
trained Christian volunteers will take your call and
pray both for you and with you. If you are outside of the UK then you
may submit your request for prayer on line at
http://www.ucb.co.uk/
May God bless you.
Looking for God teamUnited Christian Broadcasters
Before we continue lets understand what interpolation means. In terms of historical texts the ones we are intereted in are 1, 3 and 4
Interpolate
[in-tur-puh-leyt]
1. to introduce (something additional or extraneous) between other things or parts; interject; interpose; intercalate.
2. Mathematics. to insert, estimate, or find an intermediate term in (a sequence).
3. to alter (a text) by the insertion of new matter, especially deceptively or without authorization.
4. to insert (new or spurious matter) in this manner.
Ok lets look at the answer in more detail
Josephus ~
Born 37AD
Died 101AD
Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, written around 93–94 AD. So 93 years after the death of Jesus Josephus mentions someone called Jesus twice in Antiquites of the jews and it is widley suspected that the passage was tampered with by the Church. Lets look at the passage itself 1st with the interpolation in and then with it taken out.
“About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man [if indeed one ought to call him a man.] For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. [He was the Christ.] When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. [On the third day he appeared to them restored to life, for the prophets of God had prophesied these and countless other marvelous things about him.] And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”
“About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not give up their affection for him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.”
Reads a bit differently without the interpolation doesnt it, easy to see why the church would want to insert certain bits of text.
POINTS
- Where did Josephus get his information from, he wasnt born when Jesus died.
- Josephus wrote the above passage around 93-94AD, its not an eyewitness account, so at best is rumour and hearsay.
- The person who answered my question points out himself that "They confirm no more than his existence, claim to be the Messiah, and his death on the cross. They do not refer to specific teachings of Jesus." I'm not sure where the last two (claim to be the Messiah, and his death on the cross) come from unless you leave the interpolation in.
- Personally the only thing I can see that it could possibly confirm is that someone called Jesus lived around that time. He might have been a bit of a radical and a good public speaker but that's about it.
- So does Josephus answer my question "Could you point me to references in history that prove the biblical Jesus existed". The answer is NO.
Tacitus ~
Born: 56AD
Died: 117AD
So 117 years after the death of Jesus Tacitus wrote.
"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind".
POINTS
- Tacitus is considered to be one of the greatest Roman historians yet leaves us with but one flimsey reference to Jesus.
- Where did Tacitus get his information from, he wasn't born when Jesus died.
- Tacitus wrote annals around 117AD, its not an eyewitness account, so at best is rumour and hearsay.
- The person who answered my question points out himself that "One again, this reference confirms nothing more than the historical reality of Jesus" or of a Jesus? Archaeologists have unearthed the tombs of 71 Yeshuas from the period of Jesus' death. (Jesus comes from the transliteration of Yeshua into Greek and then English.)
- Again all we have is a bloke on a soap box who started a radical group and paid the price for it.
- So does Tacitus answer my question "Could you point me to references in history that prove the biblical Jesus existed". The answer is NO.
For the rest the question answerer goes back into religios books so is not relavant to my question.
So did they answer my question? were they able to point me to references in history that prove the biblical Jesus existed". The answer is NO.
NOTES
The canonical gospels are four accounts, each written by a different author. The first to be written was the Gospel of Mark (written 60–75 AD), followed by the Gospel of Matthew (65–85 AD), the Gospel of Luke (65–95 AD), and the Gospel of John (75–100 AD).[75] They often differ in content and in the ordering of events.[76]
Three of them, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, are known as the Synoptic Gospels, from the Greek σύν (syn "together") and ὄψις (opsis "view").[77][78][79] They are similar in content, narrative arrangement, language and paragraph structure.[77][78] Scholars generally agree that it is impossible to find any direct literary relationship between the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John.[80] While the flow of some events (such as Jesus' baptism, transfiguration, crucifixion and interactions with the apostles) are shared among the Synoptic Gospels, incidents such as the transfiguration do not appear in John, which also differs on other matters, such as the Cleansing of the Temple.[81]
Most scholars agree, following what is known as the "Marcan hypothesis",[82] that the authors of Matthew and Luke used Mark as a source when writing their gospels. Matthew and Luke also share some content not found in Mark. To explain this, many scholars believe that in addition to Mark, another source (commonly called the "Q source") was used by the two authors.[83]
According to the majority viewpoint, the Synoptic Gospels are the primary sources of historical information about Jesus.[84] However, not everything contained in the New Testament gospels is considered to be historically reliable.[85] Elements whose historical authenticity is disputed include the Nativity, the Resurrection, the Ascension, some of Jesus' miracles, and the Sanhedrin trial, among others.[86][87][88] Views on the gospels range from their being inerrant descriptions of the life of Jesus[89] to their providing no historical information about his life.[90]
In general, the authors of the New Testament showed little interest in an absolute chronology of Jesus or in synchronizing the episodes of his life with the secular history of the age.[91] As stated in John 21:25, the gospels do not claim to provide an exhaustive list of the events in the life of Jesus.[92] The accounts were primarily written as theological documents in the context of early Christianity, with timelines as a secondary consideration.[93] One manifestation of the gospels as theological documents rather than historical chronicles is that they devote about one third of their text to just seven days, namely the last week of the life of Jesus in Jerusalem, referred to as the Passion.[94] Although the gospels do not provide enough details to satisfy the demands of modern historians regarding exact dates, it is possible to draw from them a general picture of the life story of Jesus.[85][91][93]
The gospels include a number of discourses by Jesus on specific occasions, such as the Sermon on the Mount and the Farewell Discourse. They also include over 30 parables spread throughout the narrative, often with themes that relate to the sermons.[95] Miracles performed by Jesus make up a large portion of the gospels. In Mark, 31 percent of the text is devoted to Jesus' miracles.[96] The gospel descriptions of Jesus' miracles are often accompanied by records of his teachings.[97][98]
https://carm.org/regarding-quotes-historian-josephus-about-jesus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/interpolate
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/christianity/history/disciples_1.shtml
http://www.reclaimingthemind.org/blog/2009/04/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles-how-their-deaths-evidence-easter/
http://www.christianity.com/church/church-history/timeline/1-300/whatever-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles-11629558.html
http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.php
https://www.probe.org/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources-2/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger#Epistle_concerning_the_Christian_Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_%28Tacitus%29
http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.co.uk/2006/12/was-jesus-born-in-bethlehem.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmaswwjb.htm
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2008/12/happy_birthday_dear_yeshua_happy_birthday_to_you.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6397373.stm
http://kingdavid8.com/_full_article.php?id=e8c213b3-6bb3-11e1-b1f8-842b2b162e97
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Younger_on_Christians
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/tac/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate
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